John Ashcroft

Mr. ASHCROFT

Mr. ASHCROFT. That results in those kids showing up in school far earlier than they otherwise would. It may not work that way on the floor of the Senate, but that is the way it works in school.

Mr. ASHCROFT. So if you are talking about hands tied, you may not tie their hands, but you force them to busy their hands doing a whole variety of other things.

Mr. ASHCROFT. So the distinction is not that the law provides that there can be no services, or will be none, your view is directly contrary to that of the Senator from Vermont, that services must be provided on a continuing basis, even if it was not a manifestation. But he can be kept out of the school?

Mr. ASHCROFT. They have responsibilities when they do that that they don't have with other students.

Mr. ASHCROFT. The Senator from Missouri thanks the Chair.

Mr. ASHCROFT. Now, these determination proceedings, do they involve substantial expense for the school?

Mr. ASHCROFT. This is not just a financial issue when someone brings a pipe bomb to school. That is a safety issue. Sure it costs money to put the person in alternative settings, and it costs money to have a hearing every month and a half, every 45 days. Those are massive costs. I will not deny those are very serious costs. But let us not suggest-- at least to the school districts that I dealt with--that there are no safety issues involved when people bring guns and pipe bombs to school. Does that comport with the Senator's experience in Tennessee?

Mr. ASHCROFT. Mr. President, I ask for the yeas and nays on the amendment.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I think it is in the law. That is why I was asking the Senator.

Mr. ASHCROFT. Thousands of dollars?

Mr. ASHCROFT. That is related to whether or not his disability or special education status caused or was related to the bringing and brandishing of the gun?

Mr. ASHCROFT. That lasts 45 days, according to the Senator from Iowa, and you have to have another hearing to have another 45 days.

Mr. ASHCROFT. You are asking me that question?

Mr. ASHCROFT. When you talk about a manifestation of a disability, what does that mean? That you bring a gun to school because you are disabled? Is that what you are saying? Or could that mean because you are severely emotionally disturbed, for instance?

Mr. ASHCROFT. In all deference to the Senator, the law is clear and the law provides substantial disparate or different treatment, and the treatment which is different causes very serious problems in the real world. It causes problems because we let students who bring guns into school back into the school system because of this system.

Mr. ASHCROFT. So it could be that a student who is severely emotionally disturbed is protected from being expelled for a full year, based on the fact that he is severely and emotionally disturbed and that resulted in the bringing of the gun to school?

Mr. ASHCROFT. The theory of the legislation probably provides a basis for having this series of bureaucratic trials and hearings every 45 days as people are litigating whether or not you could keep a very, very dangerous person out of school.

Mr. ASHCROFT. Mr. President, I suggest the absence of a quorum.

Mr. ASHCROFT. Then the suspension--if you got past the 10 days, you could suspend the student for 45 days.

Mr. ASHCROFT. Reserving the right to object, and I don't intend to object, I want to indicate that this is about the fourth time we have displaced this amendment, which I have been working on in conjunction with Senator Frist. This amendment has been the pending business since last Friday. This is not a novel amendment. I just want to indicate that I intend to get a vote on this amendment. Votes have been taken on amendments on both sides. The right way to resolve any dispute on this amendment is to vote on it. I have been ready to vote on this amendment for quite some time. I think everyone on both sides of the aisle knows what the amendment is about. I would just indicate that when this amendment comes back up I will persist in expecting the same courtesy that this body has accorded all other amendments to be accorded to this amendment, and I will work hard to make sure we have an opportunity to vote on it.

Mr. ASHCROFT. Is it possible to modify this consent request to say the Frist-Ashcroft amendment would be the pending business at the conclusion of this vote, and no later at the onset of the business tomorrow morning?

Mr. ASHCROFT. I want to get back to the fundamental point, and there are about three of them. I will try to make these quickly: One, that the law does provide for differential treatment. If it didn't provide for differential treatment, we wouldn't have the law. As a matter of fact, part of it was in response to this Fourth Circuit opinion, and the Congress acted. In so providing, we created a big loophole for guns and firearms in the school. We basically provided a basis for differential treatment for people who are the subject of IEPs, these special education students, who might be--I forget what the Senator from Alabama said--emotionally distressed, or troubled, or severely emotionally distressed. They might be able to come to school and have different treatment if they carry a gun to school than if someone else does. The simple fact is that the Senator from Tennessee and I believe we ought to give authority to school principals to deal with such cases as forthrightly as they do with other cases. This is in light of the fact that when you get out, not in the Chamber of the Senate, not in the theory of the bureaucracy, but when you get out into local schools, the law operates to constrain those school officials to have students come back to school who have carried guns to school and pipe bombs to school. They have carried them in, and it is not in the best interest, according to school officials, to have the students back in, but they are back in. We simply want to liberate school principals and school officials to say to people who bring guns and pipe bombs, firearms, to school, you can't do that, you are out until we say you can come back, in the same way we say that under the Gun-Free Schools Act, which is the Federal Government's mandate, students are entitled to go to school in a place that is not full of guns and firearms. I thank the Senator from Vermont for according me this opportunity to make that simple statement, that we want to provide parity for students: No matter who you are, when you bring firearms and guns to school, we want the principal to be able to send you home.

Mr. ASHCROFT

Mr. ASHCROFT. Mr. President, violent crime by juveniles is a major problem: forcible rape, murder, armed robbery, armed assault. This amendment simply says if you are going to commit armed robbery, forcible rape with the use of a firearm, murder using a firearm, assault using a firearm, or major drug crimes using a firearm, you should be tried as an adult. This is a way of sending the clearest message that adult crime deserves adult time and that use of a firearm is unacceptable. Chapter 44 in the code addresses the use of a firearm over and over again. Use of firearms is something we care about federally. We spend a lot of time debating it. The question is, are we serious about curtailing the use of firearms, especially among young people? I think we should be. This amendment provides for trying those as adults and provides access to resources in return for so doing.

Mr. ASHCROFT. First of all, this amendment refers to children 14 or over, not under the age of 14.

Mr. ASHCROFT. Yes.