John Ashcroft

Mr. ASHCROFT

Mr. ASHCROFT. I yield for the purpose of a question, and I would request the person to whom I am yielding to please preface your remarks. Does the Senator agree or not agree, if there is going to be a very strict approach, which, frankly, there has never been in my understanding of the Senate to that kind of question. I ask that he start his question that way. I don't want to yield the floor based on technical failure, if the Senator will begin with words of an interrogatory nature.

Mr. ASHCROFT. The family kinds of things, the capital gains sort of things--these are the things that would be totally wiped out by the additional collections which would be mandated under this bill. They are mandated that they be collected from, basically, the poorest people in the culture--60 percent, basically, under $30,000. It would mean that over time, over the last 2 years, we would have had a tax increase not a tax decrease.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I think it is pretty clear they have boosted, or seek to boost the kind of financial impact to a very serious--hundreds of billions of dollars--extent. My objection is that this is all passed on to low-income people, consumers. Obviously there are other impacts as well. Obviously it affects the ability of companies to participate in this kind of settlement.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I ask unanimous consent that the article be printed in the Record.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am pleased to yield to the Senator from Utah for a question and thank him for his questions. I appreciate the way in which he has framed these questions. I think it has been very productive and helpful in this debate.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I earlier agreed and, as a matter of fact, urged you to have Members from your side go ahead of me. I don't mind them having a chance to speak. When we sought unanimous consent for that, it was objected to by the manager of the bill. I had intended, in every respect, to provide for ample debate. My view is that this is a very important topic. I learned last night in an announcement by those managing this bill that there would be an effort made to table this amendment without giving a full opportunity for discussion and that there was a time set without even so much as seeking an agreement from Senators as to how much time could be spent. In my judgment, if you are going to have an $868 billion tax increase on the American people in pursuit of an objective, which is allegedly the reduction of teen smoking, but has lots of other consequences and is unlikely to achieve the objective, we ought to at least be able to debate it. So I am very willing to consider full debate. I want to have that on this issue. But the managers of this bill have basically signaled to me that they intend to truncate debate, that they don't want this discussed. So it was my judgment that I needed to come to the floor and bring the evidence with me and then speak about this bill. I intend to speak about it and say what I think needs to be said. I am very pleased to have questions raised. But when questions are raised, obviously, that comes out of the time for me to make my remarks. That would extend the time. I think my position is clear. Early on, I tried to make it possible for those in the Chamber to go ahead of me and make remarks, and that was rejected. So if my only choice is to make my own remarks, then I will make my own remarks. But I sought to make it possible for others to speak.

Mr. ASHCROFT. There are some interesting things that come as a result of this proposed tax increase. No. 1, it would mean that the Federal Government profited more than any other entity or institution from smoking in this culture. We would have more benefit from smoking than any of the companies would in profit. So the Federal Government would become the No. 1 beneficiary of tobacco use in the country. No. 2, if there is a serious black market problem with contraband cigarettes, then that changes a number of calculations. One of the things it will change is, if people go into the black market on cigarettes sales, they not only don't pay their Federal tax, which is this additional $1.50 that is being proposed here today per pack, but they will also not be paying the State tax. You can't imagine some contraband person saying, ``We are going to go ahead and pay all the State taxes on these contraband cigarettes, but we are not going to pay the Federal tax.'' So it might well be if the black market develops a sense of intensity and there is a substantial velocity in the black market, that money which had previously been paid to States by cigarette marketers, that money from those packs that are no longer being sold in the open market but are being sold in the black market, States could lose that revenue stream which they now have from the legitimate sale of cigarettes. It should be noted that there is already a black market problem in cigarettes because of different State levels and just because the tax is so high. This would probably--frankly, it might serve to make millionaires out of some people who are already dabbling in the black market for cigarettes.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am aware of that.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I agree we have to do what we can to appropriately use what resources we can to reduce teen smoking.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am not in a position to answer that question. I think the question is a very good question, but it would have to be addressed to the Senator from Massachusetts.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am aware of it, and that is why I think it is unnecessary to massively burden working Americans with an oppressive tax in order to achieve what State and local entities are doing without this kind of imposition on working people of America.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I thank the Senator from Oklahoma and really appreciate the questions which he propounds because they get to the heart of the matter. And I appreciate also the fact that you have relayed your experience with your town hall meetings. No other Senator in the U.S. Senate, I would venture to say, no other public official, deals with the public as intimately and aggressively as you do. You know, five town hall meetings a day, hopping from airport to airport; of course no other Senator that I know of has flown a light plane around the world on his own. I know that John Glenn has orbited the Earth. But you have stopped and talked to people most everywhere and certainly in Oklahoma. So I thank you for bringing that particular item to our attention.

Mr. ASHCROFT. With the understanding that I reacquire the floor at the conclusion of the question, I would be happy to yield.

Mr. ASHCROFT. Most certainly. It would be taking money from low- income Americans and transferring what resource they have to provide for their families, a significant portion of it, and sending it to foreign governments so they can conduct studies about what the costs of smoking are in their culture.

Mr. ASHCROFT. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am aware of that. That is why I mentioned the commercial speech reservations that I had earlier.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I ask unanimous consent of the Presiding Officer that our colloquy not be interrupted by these other proceedings, and that the other proceedings be printed suitably at the end of the questioning.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I think it is pretty clear we can often find how hard someone has worked and studied by the nature of the questions they have asked. The nature of the questions you have asked is such that everyone can know that you have done perhaps as much work as anyone could possibly do in examining these issues.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am fully aware of the Senator's efforts in this respect and say he is to be commended for working so hard as he has. I know of no other individual who has dedicated himself more thoroughly to the attempt to resolve these issues than the Senator from Utah as the chairman of the Judiciary Committee.

Mr. ASHCROFT. It would probably be something in the neighborhood of closer to over $3 in terms of the increase in the price of cigarettes.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am aware of that.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I think we have a major problem on our hands. I am not concerned about piling on the companies--I am concerned about piling on the consumers, or piling on the poor people of America a tax burden which they should not be asked to carry for reasons which I think are inadequate to justify.

Mr. ASHCROFT. If that is a question, I am aware of that fact.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I believe that they have increased this, the cost of this bill, by hundreds of billions of dollars.