John Ashcroft

Mr. ASHCROFT

Mr. ASHCROFT. I think it is pretty clear they have boosted, or seek to boost the kind of financial impact to a very serious--hundreds of billions of dollars--extent. My objection is that this is all passed on to low-income people, consumers. Obviously there are other impacts as well. Obviously it affects the ability of companies to participate in this kind of settlement.

Mr. ASHCROFT. Yes. The debate this morning really helped, I think, to clarify the issue, that in England, for example, it is said that half of all cigarettes are sold on the black market.

Mr. ASHCROFT. That, indeed, is an amazing feat.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am aware of that. That is why I mentioned the commercial speech reservations that I had earlier.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am aware of that statement before the committee.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am very well aware of the serious constitutional problems of this proposed measure, which would be intensified, absent the agreement of the companies themselves.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am aware of that.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I think it is pretty clear that the infringement of the first amendment that has been applied by the highest courts to commercial speech as well as speech by ordinary citizens would be substantial were it not to have the complicity of those affected.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I believe that they have increased this, the cost of this bill, by hundreds of billions of dollars.

Mr. ASHCROFT. Well, people who earn less than $30,000 a year would pay, according to the estimates, 59.4 percent. So I don't want to inordinately suggest that it is a full 60. It is 59.4 percent of those taxes would hit people who earn less than $30,000 a year.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am not in a position to answer that question. I think the question is a very good question, but it would have to be addressed to the Senator from Massachusetts.

Mr. ASHCROFT. A $2.68 increase.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am aware of that argument.

Mr. ASHCROFT. It would include the current cost of the cigarettes. We are talking about a two-pack-a-day thing. It is really about, the increase is about--you are right, as a matter of fact.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am deeply concerned about the creation of a black market which not only destabilizes any of the intentions of this bill, but probably would make cigarettes far more available to young people than they are in society today.

Mr. ASHCROFT. Indeed it was.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am aware of the statement of Dr. Kessler.

Mr. ASHCROFT. Obviously, they could be forced into all kinds of reliance on outside sources. With the stress that would happen to a family that lost $100 a month by virture of this kind of massive Federal tax on the family, who knows what happens even in the way the family is composed in a setting like that because financial stress is a big part of the challenge to families generally. This is an anti-family measure. This takes from families a very serious proportion of the resources they use to care for one another. And when we say that Government wants this money so badly it will take it from you, and we know you are going to pay it because you are addicted and can't stop, we have really allowed the greed of Government to overtake us. And to say to families, it doesn't matter about you, we are so interested in doing what we want to do--and it does shock me that we are going to spend this money overseas, keeping data about the costs of smoking overseas. I just can't imagine how many folks in Arkansas or my home State of Missouri, who are earning $30,000 or $10,000 or $15,000, would want to make these kinds of payments so they could keep track of the costs of smoking in foreign jurisdictions. That is mind-boggling.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am aware of that statement.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I understand the Senator's position.

Mr. ASHCROFT. We are paying for governments overseas. We are paying for someone else's government, for their studies overseas. We are helping foreign governments decide how costly it is for their citizens, I guess. I don't know if this is an idea to make sure--we want people overseas to make sure they realize how much it is costing them to smoke? I think we have a responsibility to people in this country, who know how much it is costing them to live, to let them keep some of the money they earn so they can help their families. But the $350 million a year that goes into this program is something that I seriously question whether we want to tax the lowest income people in America in order to achieve.

Mr. ASHCROFT. Most certainly. It would be taking money from low- income Americans and transferring what resource they have to provide for their families, a significant portion of it, and sending it to foreign governments so they can conduct studies about what the costs of smoking are in their culture.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am aware of the Senator's intention in that respect.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I am aware of the Senator's position in that regard.