Dan Burton

Mr. BURTON of Indiana

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Let me say in its report Dead Silence, the Legacy of Abuses in Punjab, Asia Watch said that over the last 5 years there were between 4,000 and 5,000 people that were tortured in one police station alone, according to a police official there. This is in one police station alone in the last 4 to 5 years in Punjab. We are not even talking about Kashmir. Let me just say one more thing, if I might, if the gentleman will yield.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. If I might conclude, my concern is these human rights violations do occur. All I want to do tonight is send a signal to the Indian government that we do not approve and that there ought to be some change in policy. It is not punitive from the standpoint that we are penalizing them because we are not cutting the aid they got last year by one dime. We are only not allowing them to get an increase.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. First of all Mr. Chairman, let me thank my colleague for yielding. I would like to say that there is money to be made in India. I will not discount that fact. There is a lot of American companies who want to go over there and are over there making money and they are very concerned because they have an ax to grind. But the fact remains that human rights atrocities are taking place in Punjab, Kashmir, Nagaland, and elsewhere. When we were talking about Turkey just a few short minutes ago, we were talking about something that may or may not have occurred. There is a big divergence of opinion among historians in Turkey.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Mr. Chairman, we have talked about this before, and I know I have a lot of my colleagues who have Indian constituencies who are going to stand up here tonight and say all of this is baloney and it is not really happening. Well, I want to tell my colleagues I have had CIA informational reports, I have had other documented reports that have come into my office over the last 13 years, and I am convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that these things are occurring. All I am asking tonight is to send a signal. I am not saying cut off all developmental aid to India, I am not saying cut off every dollar, although I think we should. We should not be supporting a regime like that. But what I am saying is let us just send one little signal to the Indian Government that the United States Congress does not want to stand still for human rights violations, and the way to do that is to freeze spending at last year's spending level. We are not even asking to cut it. Just freeze it at last year's level and do not give them an $8.3 million increase. The people over there every night go to bed in fear for their lives, not knowing if they are going to be dragged out in the middle of the night to be tortured or killed or raped. It is time to at least give them some solace by letting them know that the Congress of the United States does care about human rights and does care about what is going on in that part of the world. I do not care if human rights violations take place in Africa, in India or anyplace else, we should be concerned and we should send a signal, and we should not be rewarding that kind of activity. So I would just like to say to my colleagues in closing, let us send a little signal tonight, a little small signal saying we do not tolerate this sort of action.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Mr. Chairman, we have talked about human rights violations that may or may not have taken place 70 years ago, but what I want to talk about tonight are human rights violations that are taking place today. First of all, let me just say if we were not even talking about human rights violations, this amendment would make sense, because what it does is it freezes assistance to India at last year's spending level. We are not cutting the aid to India, the developmental assistance, we are just freezing it at last year's spending level. The administration and the bill chose to raise it by $8.3 million. So what we are doing really is not cutting anything, we are just freezing spending at last year's level, but it will save $8.3 million because we are not going to allow the increase. So if for no other reason than the fiscal impact, this bill makes some sense. But let us talk about what is going on in India today in a place called Kashmir, Punjab, Nagaland, and elsewhere. More than 150,000 Sikhs have been killed by the Indian regime since 1984. This includes more than 40,000 killed in the Delhi massacre, over 20,000 killed in the Golden Temple attack, and 25,000 killings documented by other leaders over there. India has also killed over 200,000 Christians in Nagaland since 1947 and more than 40,000 Muslims in Kashmir since 1988 and tens of thousands of Tamils and others. According to the U.S. State Department, between 1991 and 1993 the Indian regime paid over 41,000 cash bounties to police officers for killing innocent people, Sikhs. Women in Kashmir, because of their Muslim beliefs, are taken out in the middle of the night, their husbands are held at gun point in their homes, and the women are gang- raped, and many of those women commit suicide or leave the country because of the shame that is brought upon them. This is happening today. This picture shows a picture of a man who has been disemboweled and tortured. His arm has been burned severely, he has been disemboweled, there are burns on his side. This is what the Indian occupied troops are doing in Kashmir and Punjab. They have 550,000 troops in Kashmir, they have 550,000 troops in Punjab, and this goes on daily. Recently, I want to read to my colleagues what happened when a fellow was stopped. One of the leaders was stopped, he was taken out of his car and he was killed. They took his driver, they tied his legs, one to one car and one to the other, and they drove off in different directions and cut him in two. This is not baloney, folks, this is really happening, and it is happening at the hands of the Indian Government. We are our brother's keeper. We should be concerned about human rights violations wherever they take place in the world. We may have some differences of opinion on what happened 60, 70, 80 years ago, but today in India, In Kashmir and Punjab, this is taking place. This is happening right now. They drained some canals in Punjab and Kashmir, and they found hundreds of bodies with their hands tied together and their feet bound, and they were thrown in the canal and drowned. They estimate, according to reports that we have, that almost every single person that is taken into prison in Punjab and in Kashmir is tortured. This goes on every single day. We might say, well, if that is happening, why does the world not know about it? Well, Amnesty International is not allowed in there. Other human rights groups are not allowed in there. Television cameras are not allowed in there, and so the world does not see it. Now, if Congressmen go over there and they seem to have a bias toward India, what they will do is they will take them out there with Indian troops and Indian guides, and they will go through to talk to people. But those people will not respond because they are afraid they will be tortured or punished later on if they say anything in front of the Indian officials that are with the traveling people that come in there. The fact of the matter is that area should be opened up. The world should be able to see. If they could see what is going on in Punjab and Kashmir and Nagaland, the world would shudder, because it is as bad as what was going on in Bosnia.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Mr. Chairman, reclaiming my time, I have studied this issue and debated this issue for 13 years, and I am telling you that we have brought history book after history book after history book and stuck them up on this table, and there is a strong divergence of opinion about what happened, and that is the problem. Therein lies the problem, because there is no conclusive evidence on one side or the other, and for us to penalize our friends because of inconclusive evidence makes no sense.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. I yield to the gentleman from New Jersey.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. My colleague makes a very, very valid point. What we are doing is dredging up an issue that happened 70 years ago, if it happened at all, and there is a divergence of opinion, and we are penalizing a friend based upon that erroneous information. I thank the gentleman very much for his comments.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. No, there was none.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. There was absolutely none. As a matter of fact, 2,300 POW-MIA's were not accounted for, as every President before demanded.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. I yield to the gentleman from Louisiana.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike the requisite number of words. Mr. Chairman, we have debated the so-called Armenian genocide issue for the past 13 years. I can remember when I stood at this table with a stack of books this high from historical experts who had studied the so-called Armenian genocide and took issue with the findings of the majority of the speakers here tonight. They do not believe the conclusions that have been reached by the legislation that has been proposed. The fact is, there was a lot of killing on both sides, and there is enough blame to go around. There is no question that a lot of Armenians were killed, but there were also a lot of Turkish people that were killed as well. Now, the fact of the matter is, there is a divergence of opinion on this issue. Historians from the Middle East come to different conclusions about the issue. And for us to start penalizing an ally like Turkey when there is this huge division of opinion among historical experts, historians, just does not make any sense to me. I could see us kicking somebody in the teeth who is an enemy of the United States, but to go back 70 years, 80 years and start dredging up old wounds and old issues that is going to divide the people in that part of the world makes no sense to me. It just makes no sense whatsoever. If there was conclusive evidence that the Armenian genocide did take place the way it is depicted here tonight, then I would say let us go ahead with it. But there is a huge divergence of opinion. We had a hearing before the international operations committee just a few weeks ago and we had historians from Turkey, historians from other parts of the Middle East who made it their life's goal to get to the bottom of all of this, and they had very strong differing opinions. It was split right down the middle. So for the U.S. Congress to take one position on this, the position that is being proposed here tonight and penalizing one of the best allies we have, Turkey, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. I yield to the gentleman from Massachusetts.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Yes.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. I yield to the gentleman from Texas.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Kicking Turkey in the teeth, our friend right now, is not a constructive thing to do. If my colleagues want to write a letter to the Turkish leadership, and I would be happy to participate, expressing our concern about some things that we agree to, that is one thing. But for this Congress to take this kind of a hard line position to kick a good, steadfast ally that has been there forever in the teeth makes absolutely no sense.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Mr. Chairman, reclaiming my time, one of the problems that we have is we keep going back decades and decades and decades and reopening old wounds again and again and again, and it makes no sense. What we need to do is look at the world the way it is today and try to make it a better place. One of the things that I submit to my colleagues today is we should not be kicking Turkey in the teeth, and that is what you are doing.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Mr. Chairman, reclaiming my time, I do not know how far the gentleman from Massachusetts [Mr. Kennedy] wants to go back. We can go back 50, 70 years. I do not know how far back the gentleman wants to go back.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. I yield to the gentleman from Massachusetts.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman. Let me just follow up on what he has said. Everybody is concerned about Iran and the terrorism that has been exported from Iran throughout the Middle East. As the gentleman has just stated, Iran has a great deal of influence in countries like Turkey, and it is a very fragile situation right now. If we do not make the right decisions, we could very well be a party to pushing Turkey and their government in the wrong direction. Do we want another Iran in the Middle East? Do we want the Turkish Government to start adopting their policies? It does not make any sense, particularly when you view the fact that Turkey has been there from day one with us.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. I yield to the gentleman from Texas.

Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Mr. Chairman, let me just say, as I said in my statement here, that Azerbaijan, 20 percent of Azerbaijan is occupied by the Armenians. Let me just say, they are in talks right now, and the Turkish Government and the Armenians are in consultation with one another, and if they can work out these differences, I think they will resolve that problem. But for us, the United States of America, to kick a friend in the teeth when this kind of a situation is going on does not make any sense to me. Now, there are humanitarian planes going in there, there is humanitarian aid going in, maybe not to the extent that we want, but it is moving in the right direction, and the pressure, according to the Turkish Government, needs to be consistent in order to bring about a withdrawal from Azerbaijan by Armenian forces.