Orrin Hatch

Mr. HATCH

Mr. HATCH. I thank the Senator for his leadership on the floor in pointing out the problems that exist with regard to this ``piling on'' mentality. Is the Senator aware that we did it in the catastrophic bill, and we all lost that?

Mr. HATCH. Will the Senator yield?

Mr. HATCH. I ask the distinguished Senator if he agrees with me that the American people, see if he agrees with me that the American people are not exactly unfamiliar with the sometimes backwards, the end- justifies-the-means, cook-the-books nature of policymaking in Washington.

Mr. HATCH. All right. Why do you think the polls are showing that by a decisive 70 percent to 20 percent margin the public thinks the Congress is more interested in the revenue and spending side of this tobacco legislation than we are in the public health component?

Mr. HATCH. Now----

Mr. HATCH. Does the Senator agree with my last statement?

Mr. HATCH. I would be happy to--I do not think the Senator from Utah is abusing the rules. I think I have the privilege to ask all the questions I can. I think these have been intelligent questions. I think they have been right on point. I think they hopefully will help to elucidate what we need to know.

Mr. HATCH. Will the Senator yield further to me?

Mr. HATCH. I have one or two questions.

Mr. HATCH. Is the Senator aware----

Mr. HATCH. Is the Senator aware of how hard the Senator from Utah studied just exactly what would be the highest amount we could charge and still keep the tobacco companies--yes, kicking and screaming and fighting, and say they are gouged--on board to get these voluntary consent protocols so we can make this matter constitutional?

Mr. HATCH. Is the Senator aware of the Senator from Utah's long-term antipathy toward this industry?

Mr. HATCH. Is the Senator aware that this Senator, the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, has spent an extensive amount of time studying this issue, trying to come up with a way that you can punish the tobacco companies while getting their consent to the advertising restrictions, so they have to live up to the deal?

Mr. HATCH. I would just like to ask my friend maybe one or two more questions. If we have to have a tobacco settlement, would it not be much better to force the tobacco companies to come back on board so we can resolve the constitutional issues and have voluntary consent protocols so we can actually reduce youth smoking?

Mr. HATCH. I will take only a few more minutes. While I agree--I will make this clear--that a price increase is an important component of a comprehensive program, the reason I have gone through all this is there is no clear and convincing evidence of what that amount should be. Let us be honest, the CBO found there is uncertainty and the price rise is not foolproof. Do you agree with that?

Mr. HATCH. Well, I am disappointed that some of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle are so ready to support a new tax-and-spend program supposedly aimed at children but weighing so heavily on the backs of addicted, low-income adult workers under the guise that they are helping children. Does the Senator agree with me on that?

Mr. HATCH. Does the Senator remember back in the late 1980s when the American people made us repeal the catastrophic health insurance legislation, the same public considered and soundly rejected the Rube Goldberg-inspired, Ira Magaziner-designed Clinton health care reform proposal?

Mr. HATCH. I would submit to you that this is the same public that we can expect to watch us closely as we perform our magic on this particular bill. Does the Senator agree with me with regard to youth smoking?

Mr. HATCH. Let me just bring to the distinguished Senator's attention that during that same period of smoking decline in Canada, U.S. youth smoking decreased by 40 percent without a price increase. So much for the reasons that price is the only reason for youth smoking decrease. Is the Senator aware of that?

Mr. HATCH. I have one final concern with the chart that was used by our distinguished friend from Massachusetts on Canadian tobacco use and price. As I said, that chart ended in 1991. When you look from 1991 on, Canadian imports to our country went up dramatically. Most were smuggled back into Canada and created a huge black market. Does the Senator remember, before the Judiciary Committee, we had the former mayor of Cornwall testify before our committee?

Mr. HATCH. Right. If this $1.50 goes through, it will be probably that high. And even at $1.10, it would be approaching 60 percent; is that correct?

Mr. HATCH. Is it not correct, I ask my colleague from Missouri, who has been making very important points here during this debate, is it correct that currently smokers with incomes under $30,000 pay almost 50 percent of the tobacco excise tax?

Mr. HATCH. And he talked about how the black market came in with all of the accompanying organized crime and criminal activity to the point where his life was threatened, his family's life was threatened, people were shot at, and all kinds of other unsavory criminal practices began. Does the Senator remember that testimony?

Mr. HATCH. Now, the Judiciary Committee--I am sure the Senator is aware of this, too--heard testimony that most of these cigarettes, on that peak, that were imported into the United States were smuggled back into Canada.

Mr. HATCH. This tax increase would take away more than 5 percent of the income of an American making $10,000 a year. Is that correct?