Orrin Hatch

Mr. HATCH

Mr. HATCH. Under the same terms I would, on the Senator's time.

Mr. HATCH. I think the terms of the committee report should be given the ordinary dictionary meaning. I think that is the way we would have to do it. But Members of Congress would be responsible. Members would define them.

Mr. HATCH. We are today, of all of the estimates. We will have to be.

Mr. HATCH. Or above target?

Mr. HATCH. Let me answer the first question. Here are 28 years of similar inaccurate estimates. Wait, wait, let me make my point. Here are 28 years of missed estimates. We have been wrong every time in 28 years and we have been wrong because these are all unbalanced budgets. I agree with the Senator on the second question. Yes, from 1980 to 1996 we have been wrong every time on estimates. On a couple of occasions not very wrong, but during all of that period, the whole 28 years since 1968 and during all of the period between 1980 and 1996 we did not function pursuant to a balanced budget amendment.

Mr. HATCH. If I could finish my remarks. Under the Budget Act, CBO and OMB give estimates each year. CBO is the Congressional Budget Office; OMB is the Office of Management and Budget. They correct the estimates twice during the year as they acquire new data. Congress ultimately has to decide how you balance the differences. Now, we should plan to get above balance, as the usual course. Most years we should try to stay above balance with regard to estimates and try to stay on the course by amended estimates through the year. That is what we will have to do. I think the implementing legislation will do that. Let me make another comment, and I will turn back to my dear colleague. Meeting the requirements of the balanced budget amendment will require a heightened vigilance of Congress. It is apparent it will make us get tough on budgets. During those years we had five different statutory balanced budget approaches that led us to that morass and this morass. What we are saying is that the balanced budget amendment will require us to have a heightened vigilance in the Congress. It will require that the Federal Government be more aware of and concerned about borrowing and spending habits. No, it will not be as easy as simply spending and then borrowing if we do not plan. It will require that we plan better and that we use better standards in that planning. I think it is appropriate, given the importance of this problem and the duty we owe to our country. Now, I think what I am saying is, I agree with my colleague. He makes a very compelling point here that we have not been very accurate in estimating receipts, in estimating outlays and receipts through the 16 years, although I say through 28 years, or 58 of the last 66 years, we have run unbalanced budgets. One reason is we have relied on statutory schemes that have been circumvented in every one of those years, none of which have really worked. The distinguished Senator, by the way, to his credit, pointed out that some of those statutory schemes at the time would not work. I believe some of the rest of us felt that way as well. What we are saying is from 1997 on, or whenever this amendment is ratified and becomes law and part of the Constitution, by the year 2002 on, and really before that if we can get it ratified before then, we are going to no longer have the luxury of these inaccurate estimates. We will have to do a better job. We will have to be more vigilant. We are going to have to heighten that vigilance, and we will have to meet the requirement of a balanced budget or face the music of having to stand up and vote for higher deficits or more spending by supermajority votes. I think comparing this time and saying, because we have been inaccurate during times when statutory methods have not worked, with post-balanced-budget-amendment-enactment times where we will have to be more vigilant and we will have to come up with a way of being accurate during the year--right, OMB and CBO now only check that twice. We are going to have to do a much better job. Now, can we be absolutely accurate? Everybody knows we cannot.

Mr. HATCH. There is no way you can. I do not want to keep going with this system and then this system when we have an alternative that really would put some fiscal discipline in the Constitution that makes us get serious.

Mr. HATCH. I yield under the same set of circumstances.

Mr. HATCH. You mean under the new constitutional system if this becomes----

Mr. HATCH. Will the Senator yield on that point?

Mr. HATCH. I appreciate that, to make a comment. I believe there is no question that they would do a better job, because there won't be the same number of games played on budget matters if everybody knows that we have the constraint of either balancing the budget, or voting on a supermajority not to balance it. We all have to face our electorate. Right now, we do a lot of these things for by voice votes and other shenanigans that help to cause these things. When I say ``we,'' I would rather say ``they,'' because I try not to, and I know the Senator tries not to. But it's apparent in that our current system isn't working. I think your chart makes one of the best arguments for the balanced budget amendment of any chart we have had up here in this whole debate, because it shows that what we are doing right now, and what we have done for 28 solid years, doesn't work.

Mr. HATCH. Of course.

Mr. HATCH. In any event, he would be excluded.

Mr. HATCH. Every constitutional amendment that has ever been passed.

Mr. HATCH. Yes. Every vote where it is not 50-50.

Mr. HATCH. Sure. On cloture votes; all cloture votes. You will have to have 60 votes.

Mr. HATCH

Mr. HATCH. I am informed by the leadership office that we will be able to update the Senate about 2 o'clock tomorrow. Hopefully, these matters can be resolved. The majority leader may want to proceed to other business. I don't know. But my understanding is that there is going to be an effort to try to accommodate people. I think the two leaders will have to work that out. But we can't do it until 2 o'clock tomorrow.

Mr. HATCH. Well, I think the Senator knows the problems of leadership. The things we are trying to do tomorrow can't be cleared tonight. So until we get to 2 o'clock, we can't resolve this.

Mr. HATCH. I will certainly take the Senator's request to the majority leader and ask him to consider it.

Mr. HATCH. I will take that request to the majority leader. I will certainly do that.

Mr. HATCH. I do. I know you are protecting your side, as you should.

Mr. HATCH. I think we just have to work it out.

Mr. HATCH. These are the only requests I have.

Mr. HATCH

Mr. HATCH. Mr. President, if there is no further business to come before the Senate, I now ask that the Senate stand in adjournment under the previous order following the remarks of Senator Moseley-Braun.

Mr. HATCH. Mr. President, I suggest the absence of a quorum.