J. Kerrey

Mr. KERREY

Mr. KERREY. I do not object.

Mr. KERREY. Mr. President, I move to reconsider the vote by which the amendment was rejected.

Mr. KERREY. Mr. President, briefly, we are doing something that is unprecedented. The distinguished Senator from Alabama says that the Office of Government Ethics is unprecedented. It is the only venture that is unprecedented; never in the history of Government have we created an oversight board with these kinds of powers. And we are doing it in order to be able to restructure the IRS in a relatively short period of time. The implications would be rather traumatic for the employees of the IRS. Every private sector person whom we asked the question of--when you go through restructuring--and every public person we asked the advice of said put the rep on the board. This board sunsets in 10 years. We may decide we don't want the board and have another composition. We can revisit it, if you don't want a Treasury employee rep on the board. The Office of Ethics said there are problems here. We have corrected those problems, but they don't want a rep on the board under any circumstances. If you want a rep on the board, you have to vote no on this amendment. Otherwise, this individual is not going to be able to do the job. If you don't have the rep on the board, I think this venture is likely to run aground and not be as successful as all of us want it to be. Mr. President, I yield the remainder of my time. I urge the defeat of this amendment.

Mr. KERREY. Mr. President, this amendment has been agreed to on both sides. It strengthens the electronic filing section, title II of this bill. I appreciate very much the Chairman's support.

Mr. KERREY. I ask for the yeas and nays on this amendment.

Mr. KERREY. Earlier we did request that. We have some Members who will leave at 11 o'clock, so I asked Senator Byrd if he would speak after the rollcall vote. Does the Senator still want a rollcall vote on this amendment?

Mr. KERREY. Mr. President, I move to reconsider the vote.

Mr. KERREY. I thank the Senator.

Mr. KERREY. Mr. President, I send an amendment to the desk and ask for its immediate consideration.

Mr. KERREY. Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that reading of the amendment be dispensed with.

Mr. KERREY. Strikes the union representative from the board?

Mr. KERREY. I move to lay that motion on the table. The motion to lay on the table was agreed to.

Mr. KERREY. Mr. President, I have not seen the amendment yet. Can we get a copy of the amendment before we agree to a time limitation? May I ask the Senator, this strikes several lines, inserts several lines. It is not clear to me from the amendment what it does. Can you just----

Mr. KERREY. Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that the reading of the amendments be dispensed with.

Mr. KERREY. Mr. President, these are two amendments on which I worked very closely with the chairman. They deal with two problems, one of which is a longstanding problem that we have had with the Internal Revenue Service, and that is how to deal with taxpayers who are willfully noncompliant. This requires the Commissioner to do a study of this issue and report back to the Finance Committee. Members need to understand, approximately the average for all taxpayers is nearly $1,600 per taxpayer for noncompliance, with penalty for willful noncompliance. The second amendment came as a consequence of a witness that we had in the hearings that the chairman held, Mr. Earl Epstein of Philadelphia. He was talking about putting teeth in the provision dealing with violations of fair debt collection practices. And at the chairman's suggestion, what we have asked for in this study is that the new Treasury inspector general for tax administration also look at this and provide Congress with a report, an annual report outlining any violations of the fair debt collection practices that we have included in this bill. Mr. Epstein notes, this is likely to result in better attention being paid to collection abuses as ``no Commissioner would be happy to report significant abuses, to say nothing of awards for damages [or] for failures to enforce proper authority over collection agents.'' It is an important amendment. I appreciate the source of it was the chairman's hearings, and I appreciate a chance to work with the chairman to get this worked out.

Mr. KERREY

Mr. KERREY. I thank the Chair. (The remarks of Mr. Kerrey and Mr. Kennedy pertaining to the introduction of S. 2049 are located in today's Record under ``Statements on Introduced Bills and Joint Resolutions.'')

Mr. KERREY. Mr. President, I think the distinguished Senators from Georgia and Mississippi have identified a problem, a dilemma we all face from time to time. We sometimes get a score back from Joint Tax that seems much higher than is logical, and that is what happened in this case. So there will be a point of order that will have to be urged against this amendment as a consequence of violating the pay-go provisions of the Budget Act, section 202. I regret that because I believe the Senators from Georgia and Mississippi have identified a legitimate problem. I am frustrated myself in not being able to deal with it in a more orderly fashion. It is something the Finance Committee needs to take up and hold hearings on, ask the IRS to come and tell us what they are doing in this case. It seems to me that both the Senator from Georgia and the Senator from Mississippi have identified a problem, and it is very difficult to defend the IRS behavior in this case. I appreciate them bringing it to our attention. I regret that you find yourselves, as many of us have before, in the situation where you get a score back from the Joint Tax Committee that seems, to say the least, a bit higher and that provokes, as a consequence, a point of order. Mr. LOTT addressed the Chair.

Mr. KERREY. Mr. President, does the Senator from Georgia have any final statements?

Mr. KERREY

Mr. KERREY. I think I will go for about 27 minutes and yield back 28 seconds. Mr. President, 30 seconds, and then I will yield it all back. Likewise, I have great respect for the Senator from Florida. I believe his amendment is well intended but, if it is accepted, it will significantly weaken this board. This board needs to be more than advisory; it needs to have a sufficient amount of authority and power when it meets with Congress and we pay attention to it. If it advises and works with the IRS Commissioner, the IRS Commissioner, as well, listens and pays attention. So, this amendment will weaken the board. I understand what the Senator from Florida is trying to do, but I hope this amendment will be defeated. I yield back the remaining time.

Mr. KERREY. Mr. President, the amendment has been cleared on this side as well. It is a good amendment and I appreciate the fine work of the distinguished Senator from Missouri. THE PRESIDING OFFICER. If there be no further debate, the question is on agreeing to the amendment.

Mr. KERREY

Mr. KERREY. Mr. President, the National Restructuring Commission included this provision in our bill. It is in the House bill, or at least provisions in it that dictate that an employee who does a number of things would be automatically terminated. What the Senator from Texas has done is identified some additional things that ought to be on the list and once again has carefully drawn it--I believe the language is ``willful'' and--what was the other word, I ask the Senator? ``Willful'' and ``intentionally.'' This would not be a situation where an individual accidentally underpays taxes or misses a deadline or something like that. This is a much higher standard, a much more difficult standard. And I think it is a quite reasonable provision to add to the list of things that would force and require automatic termination. In general, this legislation is attempting to change the culture by saying here are some things that, if you do it, there are going to be severe penalties. This is obviously a severe penalty. Punitive damages for damages, we have an expanded right for legal fees. What we are trying to do is change the culture so that there is a new seriousness given to actions taken by the IRS. And all of us understand the penalty needs to be sufficient to meet the offense. I think the amendment of the distinguished Senator from Texas is a reasonable one and I urge its adoption.

Mr. KERREY

Mr. KERREY. I move to lay that motion on the table. The motion to lay on the table was agreed to. Ms. MIKULSKI addressed the Chair.

Mr. KERREY. Mr. President, I send an amendment to the desk and ask for its immediate consideration.

Mr. KERREY. Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that reading of the amendment be dispensed with.

Mr. KERREY

Mr. KERREY. Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that the order for the quorum call be rescinded.