John Warner

Mr. WARNER

Mr. WARNER. No objection.

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, would I be correct in saying this time is reserved for the distinguished Republican leader?

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, I do not see him present at the moment; therefore, if some other speaker, for a period of time, wishes to go forward--

Mr. WARNER. Fine. I just wanted to accommodate any Senator who needed 5 minutes. I see none.

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, at some point, I would be privileged if I could enter into a colloquy with my valued friend. So at the proper juncture in his remarks, perhaps we could have a bit of a colloquy.

Mr. WARNER. I thank my friend. We can have our debates, and we frequently do, on procedure, and it is very confusing, of course, to the American public. But these are old rules that go back, I might say with some sense of pride, to Thomas Jefferson. He had a hand in writing them. Somehow this magnificent institution, the Senate, has been able to serve our great Republic these 200-some-odd years. Apart from procedure--and it seems to me I recall that at an earlier juncture in the spring when we were debating certain amendments on Iraq, the Senator from Virginia had an amendment. It got over 50 votes. It was a bipartisan amendment. That amendment, quite interesting, while it failed to reach the 60-vote margin, it was picked up by the appropriators and word for word written into the appropriations bill. It required, among other things, that the President report on July 15. That report, I think, was of value. People can differ with it. I know it attracted a lot of attention and widespread press coverage. It was of value. That report also set up an independent group. I consulted with my good friend, the chairman, Senator Levin, and told him I felt all the years we have been working together we get a lot of facts from the Pentagon about the status of Iraq's security forces. Shouldn't we have an independent group not affiliated with the Department of Defense--I am not, in any way, impugning the accuracy of their facts--have an independent group give us a second opinion. GEN Jim Jones, former Commandant of the Marine Corps, offered to head up that group. I talked with him about it. He thought about it a long time. He decided to do it. He has about 18 individuals with military experience and two former police chiefs. They got back this weekend from a very intensive 1-week schedule studying these situations. So there is a great convergence of information that will be brought to bear and made public the first week in September. But back to this question before us. The distinguished Republican leader put an amendment up. I would like to ask my distinguished colleague if he would cover with me the provisions and what his views are on some of the findings in the amendment. This is a sense of the Senate on the consequences of a failed state in Iraq. Much of this material was put before the Senate a few days ago, filed by our distinguished colleague from Texas, Mr. Cornyn. Would the Senator from Illinois engage me in asking a few questions about it or is there another time he would be willing to do it?

Mr. WARNER. Yes, of course, Mr. President.

Mr. WARNER. For instance, the first finding: A failed state in Iraq would become a safe haven for Islamic radicals, including al Qaeda and Hezbollah, who are determined to attack the United States and United States allies. We know from experience in Afghanistan that bin Laden occupied a piece of territory there and set up his training camp. Much of the training that led to the horrific damage to our Nation, loss of life and property, occurred there--of course, September 11. Does the Senator not agree--I am curious, I would like to get some understanding of what the Senator's thoughts are on this sense of the Senate.

Mr. WARNER. One other, Mr. President, was a bit longer. I am No. 2, kind of like the Senator from Illinois, No. 2.

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, I think the Senator is accurate. I have studied the Levin amendment. I am opposed to it because of the fixed timetables. But let's proceed to the second one. I think we have covered the first, and I find it very helpful. The second finding: The Iraq Study Group report found that ``[a] chaotic Iraq could provide a still stronger base of operations for terrorists who seek to act regionally or even globally.'' To me that seems to have some basis in fact. Does the Senator agree with that?

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, I appreciate that answer. I think there is a provision--as a matter of fact, the amendment Senator Lugar and I filed has very much the same language in it. Let's proceed to No. 3. The Iraq Study Group noted that ``Al Qaeda will portray any failure by the United States in Iraq as a significant victory that will be featured prominently as they recruit for their cause in the region and around the world.'' That concerns me. I think there is some truth to that statement.

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, I say to the Senator most respectfully, I know no one over here who wants to try to do a precipitous withdrawal or lessen our efforts against al-Qaida. As a matter of fact, we want to reinforce our efforts against al-Qaida. We can go back and argue the numerical presence of al-Qaida at the time we went in. I do recall that very vividly and conducted many hearings in the Armed Services Committee. Al-Qaida was not high on the scope. There was mention of it. We have to deal with the facts that exist now, and it is clear, for whatever reason, they are now in that area in significant numbers larger than when we went in. I, personally, feel it is not as a consequence of our military action thus far. They simply see the terrific divisions between the Sunni culture and the culture of the Shia, and they are trying to foment among those two venerable religious cultures as much fighting as they possibly can. I think we both have to agree, to that extent, they have been successful. Clearly, al-Qaida has as its main goal, at such time as possible, to bring about further harm to the United States of America. There is no doubt in my mind, and I am sure there is no doubt in the mind of the Senator from Illinois. So I think anything that is portrayed as a failure of our commitment in Iraq could be utilized, as I said, for recruitment of their troops, whether in Iraq, Afghanistan or elsewhere in the world.

Mr. WARNER. But I say, in response to my distinguished colleague, it is for that very reason the President is dispatching the Secretaries of State and Defense into that region, to bring that point very clearly, this problem which is being experienced in Iraq. And when I say ``experienced,'' I mean devastating loss of life of Iraqi citizens, considerable loss of life of our own forces, and loss of limb. That is something which every Senator on both sides of the aisle is concerned with daily. But thus far, the bordering nations certainly have not stepped up, in my estimation, to take a constructive role. If anything, we have, in Syria and Iran, pretty convincing evidence that they are taking steps antithetical to bringing about a resolution of some sort of peace and stability in Iraq.

Mr. WARNER. By far. I think it has been 90 percent----

Mr. WARNER.--are associated with the Sunni perspective versus about 10 or less percent the Shia.

Mr. WARNER. We have to decide on the facts as they exist now, and I think our Government has. But even in the recent words of the President, he wants to intensify the participation of other nations in this situation. My colleague, Senator Lugar, in preparing our amendment--and he is quite expert in this area--has a considerable portion of our amendment--again, a sense of the Senate--directed at steps our country could be taking to augment those steps already taken. He recently met with the Secretary of State. They had a discussion here a few days ago, prior to our entering the amendment on this very matter. So we are moving forward. I think my colleague and I have no difference on the need to involve the border states and other Muslim countries of responsibility.

Mr. WARNER. We have to always monitor ourselves with the Constitution of the United States, and it explicitly gives to the President the power as Commander in Chief to direct our forces and to employ such strategy as he deems necessary to defend the security interests of our country. That is my concern with my distinguished colleague, Senator Levin, and he and I have worked here in this Chamber now in our 29th year, for those following this debate. My concern is that Congress become involved in military strategy and writing into law precisely what is done. I think that is crossing a constitutional issue. I would like to continue with my colleague.

Mr. WARNER. I know the provision quite well. It is on the regulation.

Mr. WARNER. I think you have about got it, if I may say.

Mr. WARNER. No, we are on a coequal basis, as the Senator well knows.

Mr. WARNER. Well, I remember on this floor and my distinguished colleague from Michigan remembers when Senator Byrd argued very persuasively about certain aspects of the famous War Powers Act. Now, if we bring all of that history into this debate, and it may well be that we should do that, the reason that subject was carefully considered by the Senate, passed, and became law many years ago--each President has acknowledged that in spirit they are complying with the directions of the Congress, but they do not want it put into law.

Mr. WARNER. Well, I was going to speak on that later tonight when I address my colleagues and point to the Congressional Record today, which contains the amendment by Senator Lugar and myself. But, essentially, we bring to the attention of the Senate and provide the following language for the President, if I may read it, on page S 9224 of Friday's Congressional Record, in our section: The findings that supported H.J. Res. 114, Public Law 107- 243, which was enacted in 2002 and which authorized the President to use the Armed Forces of the United States against Iraq, require review and revision. So, Senator, I have gone on record, together with my colleague, Senator Lugar, that this is necessary, and we further call on the President--and I read the bill.

Mr. WARNER. Reading section 3 of my amendment, and it is on page S 9224 of Friday's Congressional Record.

Mr. WARNER. It is our amendment, it is on page 14 of our amendment.

Mr. WARNER. The amendment is at the desk, on page 14.