John Warner

Mr. WARNER

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, I yield to the chairman of the Intelligence Committee, the Senator from Kansas, such time as he needs.

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, I wonder if I may engage my distinguished chairman in a colloquy. I am privileged to serve on his committee. Some years ago I served on the committee and at one time was vice chairman of the committee. So I draw on, if I may say with some modesty, a long experience of working with the Intelligence Committee, and, as the chairman knows, the chairman and ranking member of the Armed Services Committee have always had a role of participation in his committee. I guess if I can add up all the years as chairman and ranking, it is about 12 or 15, I think, of my 28 years on the Armed Services Committee. I have watched this committee and have been a participant for many years. As I read through the amendment offered by our distinguished colleague from West Virginia--he has the title of vice chairman. That came about because the chairman and the vice chairman traditionally on this committee work to achieve the highest degree--I guess the word is the committee working together as an entity. I say to the chairman, it is my judgment that this amendment is really in the nature of a substitute for the oversight responsibilities of the committee. As we both know, the world environment changes overnight. This business of trying to operate on the basis of reports is simply, in my judgment, not an effective way for the committee to function. The Senator from Kansas, as chairman, in consultation with the vice chairman, has to call hearings and meetings and briefings in a matter of hours in order to keep the committee currently informed about world situations. I say with all due respect to my colleagues here and to our vice chairman of the Intelligence Committee, this amendment is a substitute for the committee's responsibilities, the basic responsibilities to be performed by this committee. It is for that reason I oppose the amendment. But I would like to have the chairman's views.

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, I thank my colleague. Another observation of all of us who have had the responsibility of being a chairman and ranking member of committees, I know it is sometimes difficult to get witnesses to appear, but I found thus far, certainly with General Hayden--and I have known him for a number of years--I have a high degree of confidence in his ability to administer this Agency, the CIA. It is of great importance to this Senator because it is in Virginia, if I may say. I view the agency and each and every one of its employees as someone for whom I have an obligation to speak on their behalf when necessary. I find that General Hayden is very forthcoming, very responsive. When the Chair and ranking member desire to see him, my understanding is he makes himself available. It is not as if we have to wait until a report comes, read it, and then decide to bring him down. The Chair, in consultation with the ranking member--he and his team are quite responsive; am I not correct in that?

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, I thank my distinguished colleague. I think we have framed for the full Senate the parameters of what I regard are the points to be considered at such time we vote on this amendment. On that matter, I see the distinguished vice chairman and my colleague. How much time remains under the control of the Senator from Virginia?

Mr. WARNER. I thank the Chair. I yield the floor.

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, at this moment I suggest the absence of a quorum, with the time not chargeable to either side. Mr. KENNEDY addressed the Chair.

Mr. WARNER. I beg your pardon. I thought my colleague yielded the floor.

Mr. WARNER. No, I said charged to neither side.

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, I suggest the absence of a quorum, and I ask unanimous consent that it not be charged to either side.

Mr. WARNER. I suggest the absence of a quorum and that it not be chargeable to either side.

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, reserving the right to object, and I will not object, I would simply like to make it clear in laying aside the amendment the times remaining under the control of the Senator from Virginia and the Senator from Michigan remain in place. We will now, to accommodate our distinguished senior colleague, go off of the Kennedy amendment and proceed to address his amendment.

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, we are about to receive a copy of the amendment. But I listened very carefully to my distinguished colleague's remarks. As he well knows, in my relatively short 28 years in the Senate, I have listened to him and I have the highest respect for his judgment, and particularly as it relates to how the legislative body should discharge its constitutional responsibilities and how, also, it should not try to discharge its constitutional responsibilities. And I guess my opposition falls, most respectfully, in the latter category because I find this Congress has a very high degree of vigilance in overseeing the exercise of the executive powers as it relates to the war against those whom I view as jihadists, those who have no respect for, indeed, the religion which they have ostensibly committed their lives to, and those who have no respect for human life, including their human life. It is a most unusual period in the history of our great Republic. The good Senator, having been a part of this Chamber for nearly a half century, has seen a lot of that history unfold. The Senator and I have often discussed the World War II period. That is when my grasp of history began to come into focus. And, indeed, the Senator himself was engaged in his activities in the war effort, as we all were in this Nation. The ensuing conflicts, while they have been not exactly like World War II, have been basically engaging those individuals acting in what we refer to as their adhering to a state, an existing government that has promulgated rules and regulations, such as they may be, for the orders issued to their troops, most of whom wore uniforms, certainly to a large degree in the war that followed right after World War II, the Korean war. Most of those individuals in that conflict had some vestige of a uniform, conducting their warfare under state-sponsored regulations. I had a minor part in that conflict and remember it quite well. Vietnam came along, and there we saw the beginning of the blurring of state sponsored. Nevertheless, it was present. The uniforms certainly lacked the clarity that had been in previous conflicts. And on the history goes. But this one is so different, I say to my good friend, the Senator from West Virginia. And I think our President, given his duty as Commander in Chief under the Constitution, has to be given the maximum flexibility as to how he deals with these situations. We see that in a variety of issues around here. But, nevertheless, it is the exercise of executive authority, and that exercise of executive authority must also be subject to the oversight of the Congress of the United States. But I feel that in the broad powers conferred on the executive branch to carry out its duty to defend the Nation in the ongoing threat against what we generally refer to as terrorism--but more specifically the militant jihadists--we have to fight with every single tool we have at our disposal, consistent with the law of this Nation and international law. And, therefore, we are here in this particular time addressing a bill which provides for meting out justice, a measure of justice, to certain individuals who have been apprehended in the course of the war against this militant jihadist terrorist group. I find it remarkable, as I have worked it through with my other colleagues, that they are alien, they are unlawful by all international standards in the manner they conduct the war. Yet this great Nation, from the passage of this bill, is going to mete out a measure of justice as we understand it. Now, the Senator's concern is--and it always should be; it goes back to the time of George Washington and the Congress at that time--the fear of the overexercise of the authorities within the executive branch. But I think to put a clause and restriction, such as the Senator recommends in his amendment, into this bill would, in a sense, inhibit the ability of the President to rapidly exercise all the tools at his disposal. I say to the Senator, your bill says: The authority of the President to establish new military commissions under this section shall expire. . . . However, the expiration of that authority shall not be construed to prohibit the conduct to finality of any proceedings of a military commission established under this section before that date. That could be misconstrued. This war we are engaged in, most notably on the fronts of Afghanistan and Iraq today, we see where it could spread across our globe and has--not to the degree of the significance of Iraq or Afghanistan, but it has spread. Other nations have become the victims, subject to the threats, subject to the overt actions such as took place in Spain and other places of the world. We should not have overhanging this important bill any such restriction as you wish to impose by virtue of what we commonly call a sunset. I think that would not be correct. It could send the wrong message. We have to rely upon the integrity of the two branches of the Congress to be ever watchful in their oversight, ever unrestrained in the authority they have under the Constitution. As we commonly say around here, what the Congress does one day, it can undo the next day. If, in the course of exercising our authority under the doctrine of the separation of powers--how many times have I heard the distinguished Senator from West Virginia discuss the doctrine of the separation of powers? So often. I remember when we were vigilantly trying to protect those powers reserved unto the Congress from an encroachment by the executive branch. So for that reason I most respectfully say that I do not and I urge other colleagues not to support this amendment but to continue in their trust in this institution, in the Senate and in the House, to exercise their constitutional responsibilities in such a way that we will not let the executive branch at any time transcend what we believe are certain parameters that we have set forth in this bill regarding the trials and the conduct of interrogations. I think an extraordinary legislation that I was privileged to be involved in, which garnered 90-some votes, was the Detainee Act, sponsored by our distinguished colleague, Mr. McCain. That was landmark legislation. From that legislation has come now what we call the Army Field Manual, in which we published to the world what America will do in connection with those persons--the unlawful aliens who come into our custody by virtue of our military operations, and how they will be dealt with in the course of interrogation. That was an extraordinary assertion by the Congress, within the parameters of its powers, as to what they should do, the executive branch. But a sunset date for the authority to hold military commissions, in my judgment, is not in the best interests, at this time in this war, of our country. I know there are other speakers. How much time do I have remaining?

Mr. WARNER. I thank the Chair, and I yield the floor.

Mr. WARNER. May I reply at the appropriate time?

Mr. WARNER. Many times, the two of us have stood right here and had our debates together. It is one of those rich moments in the history of this institution when two colleagues, without all of the prepared text and so forth, can draw upon their experience and knowledge and their own love for the Constitution of the United States and engage. I say to my good friend, 3 weeks ago, there were headlines that three Senators were in rebellion against their President, three Senators were dissidents, and on and on it went. Well, the fact is, the three of us-- and there were others who shared our views, but somehow the three of us were singled out--believed as a matter of conscience we were concerned about an issue. The concern was that the bill proposed by the administration, in our judgment, could be construed as in some way--maybe we were wrong-- indicating that America was not going to follow the treaties of 1949-- most particularly, Common Article 3. Common Article 3 means that article in each of these three treaties. As my good friend knows--and we draw on our own individual recollections about the horrors of World War II. I was involved in the foreign battlefield. We certainly knew about it back here at home and studied it. I was a youngster, a skinny youngster in my last year in the Navy. So much for that. But we were very conscious of what was going on, and the frightful treatment of human beings as a consequence of that war. The world then came together--and I say the world--after that and enacted these three treaties. The United States was in the lead of putting those treaties in. Those treaties were for the purpose of ensuring that future mankind, generations, hopefully, would not experience what literally millions of people experienced by death and maiming--not only soldiers but civilians. Mr. President, we believed that the administration's approach to this could be interpreted by the world as somehow we were not behind those treaties. If we were to put a sunset in here after all of the deliberation and all of the work on the current bill that is before this body, it could once again raise the specter that, well, if in fact the United States was trying to not live up to the treaties that brought on this debate in the Senate, then at the end of 5 years we go back to where we were. That could happen. We do not want to send that message. We want to send a message that this Nation has reconciled, hopefully, this body, as we vote this afternoon, and will send a strong bipartisan message that we are reconciled behind this legislation to ensure that in the eyes of the world we are going to live fully within the confines of the treaties of 1949.

Mr. WARNER. I respectfully say that our bill does, in my judgment. Clearly, it constitutes an affirmation of the treaties. I would not want to send a message at this time that there could come a point, namely, December 31, 2011, that such assurances as we have given about those treaties might expire. That is what concerns me.

Mr. WARNER. I say to my friend, Mr. President, from a technical standpoint, he is correct. He is going in there and incising out regarding commissions. But the whole debate has been focused around how those commissions will conduct themselves in accordance with the common understanding of Article 3, particularly. So while the Senator, in his very fine and precise way of dealing with the legislation, takes out just that, it might not be fully understood beyond our shores. The headline could go out that there is going to be an expiration. I say to my good friend, it is just not wise to go in and try and put any imprint on this that expiration could occur. It could raise, again, the debate, and I do not think that is in the interest of the country. I think this debate, this legislation has been settled, and I don't think it was ever the President's intention in the course of the preparation of his legislation, but some fear it could.

Mr. WARNER. If you are not caught within this period of time, when this went into effect, then you are no longer going to be held accountable. I, and I think every Member of this body, regret that this Nation or other nations or a consortium of nations have not captured Osama bin Laden. There is a debate going on about that, and I am not going to get into that debate, but the fact is he is still at large. There could be other Osama bin Ladens, and it may take years to apprehend them, no matter how diligently we pursue them. We cannot send out a signal that at this definitive time, it is the responsibility of the President, of the executive branch, to hold those accountable for crimes against humanity. They would not be held accountable if this provision went into power. Need I remind this institution of the most elementary fact that every Senator understands, that what we do one day can be changed the next. If there comes a time when we feel this President or a subsequent President does not exercise authority consistent with this act, Congress can step in, and with a more powerful action than a sunset, a very definitive action. Mr. President, it is my understanding I have a few minutes left under this amendment.

Mr. WARNER. I would like to have that time transferred under my time on the bill as a whole. I hope Senator Cornyn, who has expressed an interest in this, gets the opportunity to use that time to address this amendment. Now, Mr. President, as I look at the number of Senators who are desiring to speak on my side--and I think perhaps it would be helpful if you could, I say to my colleague, the ranking member, check on the other side--we still have some debate, and we are prepared to get into debate on the Kennedy amendment now. Therefore, I will undertake to do that just as soon as I finish. But then we are in that time period where all time has expired or utilized or otherwise allocated on the several amendments. We will soon receive an indication from the leadership as to the time to vote on the stacked votes. But under the time reserved for the bill, I have, of course, the distinguished Senator from Arizona, Mr. McCain, and Senator Graham are going to be given by me such time as they desire, and then subject to the time utilized by those two Senators, I would hope to have time for Senator Hutchison, Senator Chambliss, and again Senator Cornyn, Senator Grassley, and Senator McConnell, the distinguished majority whip. So I am going to manage that as fairly and as equitably as I can. That is what we propose to do. I will go into the subject of the Kennedy amendment right now.

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, my distinguished colleague used two phrases just now. He said: Burden. He used the word burden. He then said the word bother. Senator, you walk straight into the constitutional separation of powers in your language and you say: The Secretary of State shall--that is a direct order--notify other parties to the Geneva Conventions. You are putting a direct order to the executive branch. I say that is a transgression of the long constitutional history of this country and the doctrine of separation of powers.

Mr. WARNER. Senator, I am not in the business of trying to amend your amendment.

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, at this point I wish to have such time as remains under the control of the Senator from Virginia accorded to me under the control of the time on the bill.

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, the managers, together with the guidance from their respective leaders, are endeavoring to do the following. There are three amendments to be voted on and then final passage. We hope to have as much time used on the bill as we can, to be consumed prior to the initiation of the votes. But then subsequent to the three votes, there will be a block of time. A Senator on this side has reserved 12 minutes. I intend to reserve, on my side, time to Senator McCain. I am trying to work in that category of time following the votes. But until we are able to reconcile this, I ask that we now proceed. Let me allow the Senator from Georgia to proceed. He has indicated a desire to speak for 5 or so minutes at this time. But I hope Senators are following what the two managers are saying. Those desiring to speak on the bill, with the exception of Senator McCain, would they kindly come down and utilize this time before the amendments start? I yield the floor.

Mr. WARNER. Mr. President, I thank our distinguished colleague from Georgia, a very valued member of the Armed Services Committee who has from time to time participated in the extensive deliberations and consultations with regard to how the original bill which we worked on should be shaped and finally amended. I thank him. Again, I call to the attention of colleagues that I shall put in a quorum for the purpose of trying to accommodate Members on my side who desire to speak. I now see the distinguished Senator from South Carolina. We are prepared to allocate to him such time as he may desire. How much time does he need?

Mr. WARNER. Yes.